good afternoon kenny. i just finished reading your debate w/ the calvinist, and decided to write you an email. i am a true born again christian (rom8:16), saved in a charismatic church, but now attending a baptist church. i was initially taught some erroneous doctrines (tongues, etc) as long as the whole free-will of man theology. however, God has really been revealing to me the truth in His Word of His electing love. i'm assuming you're going to label me a calvinist, and that's fine, as i totally agree w/ their 5 point tulip system. i just wanted to let you know that not all 'calvinists' are 'born' by the reading and doctines of past-calvinists. i have never read augustine, or calvin to be honest. i have read a few books by pink, and am reading the pleasures of God by piper. i believe in a pre-trib rapture, as that is also follows along the doctrine of grace, predestination and election. i used to think, well God's servants in ot always had to suffer, so why shouldn't the nt church saints suffer during the trib? one word...grace! the same reason i truly w/ all my heart believe i was saved. i have unsaved famiily as i grew up in a non-christian family, and i have honestly prayed that God would allow them to of their free-will 'choose' Him. i pray all the time, daily, that they get saved. they know the truth. why then haven't they 'chosen' to get saved? i, like paul, consider myself far more wretched than they, and farther from God, due to my enourmous pride. most christians believe God works in circumstances, and can control all events, as we see in the Word (wind, sun, and yes even the wills of men, eg. how He 'knew' cyrus would 'choose' to allow the jews to return from exile after 70 yrs (as prophesied) to rebuild their temple, see also ezra1:1, etc) if we did not believe that God has control over these, then our prayers are really useless, as we are praying to a 'god' that is powerless to work out events. have you ever prayed that God would move someone's heart? i know i have, and He has answered it. can man utterly reject what God has declared? men can 'choose' all they want to about the end times, but regardless of their 'choice' the end will come, as predicted.

i also believe that if God predestines us according to foreseen faith, then that is of works, and not of grace.if He foresaw some good in us, and therefore chose us, b/c we were smart enough, or good enough, or 'willed' to do, then we have merit in salvation. i agree that rom9-11 is concerned w/ the past, present and future of israel, and that we as nt church saints cannot claim all of God's promises to them, but, well, i know you know 2tim3:16,17. if we use that reasoning, then we needn't really get into the old testament in depth, right? salvation has always been by grace. God never changes, as we see in heb13:8. so we cannot simply disregard something in rom9-11 then. 11:5-6 say (i know you know these), "even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. and if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. but if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work". we read in the next verses that as in isaiah's time, God has an elect people, and that the rest are blinded, even unto this day. now many say, God is unjust here, that He is not fair. but the end of the chapter says we are not His councillors, we have not His infinate mind. if He did not blind the jews, then salvation would not have come full-scale to the gentiles (11:11). human reasoning cannot explain God's ways. the crucifixation of God incarnate to wash the sins of those who believe is foolishness the carnal mind of man! why God allows suffering to strengthen His saints cannot be revealed by intellect, but soley by the Holy Spirit. and the same is true for election. i believe totally in God's justice, and that He even delights in it, as He is just. "yea, let God be true, but every man a liar". paul rebuked the jews in rom3 who thought they were 'elect' b/c they were jewish. no, we are elect b/c we believe on the Son. He says in v.5, "is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (i speak as a man). God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world". please not the importance of what paul adds in brackets, implying irony, "i speak as a man". he used the same format in the rebuking of the corinthians and their insipid theology. my reasoning cannot fully explain why God chose me, as i agree w/ paul, i was the chiefest of sinners. you know calvinists believe this. that God simply chose certain individuals, regardless of anything of themselves, to make into trophies of His grace, to show the world of His power, that they might believe on the Son. i believe this.

one thing i want you to know is that of all the people at church who i hang out w/ the calvinists are the hungriest, and the humblest, despite what we saw in your debate w/ that gentleman.  we give all glory to God; for of ourselves, we are nothing but scum worthy of hell. i praise God everyday for His electing grace, that i deserved none of it of my own goodness or merit, and that God would be just in sending me to hell. i cannot explain why He allows some to go to hell, or as you might say, predestines some for hell. of course the Bible does not say this in anyway, or in any verse. but being honest, and not afraid to confront tough issues, i admit that is what is automatically implied when we say God elects some and passes over others. i would be weak to even try to avoid that.  i know that the wages of sin is death. please note, i am still seeking, and i still pray very often that God would reveal to me the truth, and that if my beliefs are wrong that the Spirit would change them, for all i seek is to bring my Father glory; and to bring a disgrace to His name would be the very last thing i want. (of course, that is why we must be careful that we not allow our 'liberty' to cause others to fall, as paul told the corinthians, regarding meat of course, but i believe it applies here, as paul was using that as a reference for example's sake). i honestly just wanted to show you that this doctrine, which i honestly believe is not just in choice verses like rom9-11, or john5, or 1cor1-2, etc...but i believe is all throughout the Bible. i just read john prayerfully, asking God that if i was believing a lie, to show me. but i can honestly say that this book itself has at least 50 (i may be under, so please don't jump all over this one...i could count and name them if you really want, and i will if you want as well) references to this doctrine. my girlfriend who also disagrees w/ me has given me the book by fisk, and i have read it, and agree that many calvinists are overboard, but i still believe this to be true.

i also wanted to tell you that this is the most humbling doctrine as well. i used to boast of myself, but now i realize i am what i am by the grace of God (cf. 1cor15:10, 4:7). HE is my righteousness, for mine is but filthy rags. God requires perfection (mat5:48). He requires perfect love, perfect service, and perfect faith. if God required anything less than perfection, He would be able to allow imperfections in His prescence and we could not boast of His perfect holiness. how can i, a fallen man offer to Him, a perfect God who demands perfection, perfect love of myself. all i have is filth to offer Him, including a filthy, tainted faith. i cannot love Him, until He gives me the perfect love of Christ in my heart to truly love Him w/ the love He requires and deserves. that is why i believe that as dead men in our trespasses, we must be quickened by the Spirit, to be given eyes to see, and ears to hear. you probably agree w/ this. but when we through our new eyes see Christ as He is, a Saviour, and not a stumblingblock, we run to Him w/ eyes of faith. everyone who saw even the glory of God fell to the ground in awe. are we no different when we truly see Him?

almost all true born again believers believe God is sovereign. i do as well. but if we truly, and prayerfully think about this, we must conclude that election stands as true. God has decreed the end from the beginning, and no choice of ours can frustrate His purpose. any Bible example will do. moses...he did not choose to be spared when pharoah killed all the jewish babies under 2 yrs of age? (sorry for my ignorance). he did choos to kill the egyptian and flee. did he choose to walk by the burning bush? no. did he choose to obey God? yes. did God force this upon him? i don't think so. but did God predestine moses to be a leader to the jews to remove them from the bondage of the egyptians? yes. God knew moses was going to be the leader, and therefore did all that was necessary to prepare him to 'choose' to follow God.i agree that man must choose God, but i disagree that we can choose Him w/o His influence. God does not rape us as geisler says, but rather bends our will until it accomplishes what He purposes for us. and it is not rape when we desire it. it is not rape when a wife desires her husband. God changes us so that we desire Him. when i was saved, i was not raped. and if you want to call it that (i am utterly appalled anyone would even relate this disgusting analogy to salvation, God have mercy on them), then yes i was too; but i praise God for it (tho' i know i earnestly desired what is Lovely).

i am going to paraphrase something i read before but has stuck w/ me to this day. it was george whittfield writing to wesley, and he said something like, "yes, man hath a free will, a free will to go to hell". i agree that this is true, and that if man chooses God by anything that is w/in him (ie. his will), he has where of to glory and boast, something paul rebuked the corinthians for as well. i do not know who God's elect are, but He does. Jesus knew who would come to Him, for He knew all that were His from the beginning (cf. john6:64). this is not just about His disciples and judas, otherwise we are saying He only foreknew the 12, and no one else; that He was limited in His foreknowledge. many try to find 'appropriate' contexts of john6 when we quote john6:65. can we not just take what it says instead of molding it into our theology? scripture must form theology, and not the other way around.

does election paint a picture of an unloving God towards the unelect? many think so. in my limited natural mind, i agree. and honestly again, i cannot explain it, but i cannot use that as a basis to not believe what He declares as Truth. scripture must be our plumb-line, and emotions cannot determine my interpretation of the Bible. john17 apparently portrays an unloving Messiah who prays only for His own, but not for the world (17:9), which He died for. Jesus keeps only those whom God gives Him, and no one else(17:11-12). face it, if any one gets saved, it is b/c the Father hath given them to the Son. of nothing of themselves did they seek Him (for HE came to seek and save those which were lost), for fallen man is spiritually discerned (1cor2:14). can God overcome man's natural flesh that resisteth all that is good? "as Thou hast given Him (Jesus) power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him"(17:2). i affirm w/ scriptures in ezekial where God does not rejoice in punishing the wicked. it says this in the Bible, therefore i must believe it as Truth. but if He doesn't like it, why does He allow it to happen? does He not have power to save all then to avoid this problem? yet God is glorified by this, in that His justice is maintained, for truth hath reigned and unrighteousness has been punished as He declared it would. is it fair that the non-elect will suffer in hell? i do not think so (i speak as a man), but again, my emotions and natural mind must take a back seat to God's declared Word of Truth. all i can say is that if God had left salvation up to a fallen man, then no one would be saved. God is not unjust. He punishes sin. sinners choose to sin. i choose to sin. but God chose to save me, not on any merits, but by free sovereign grace. God still forgives me when i sin b/c He has said so in His Word. who am i to tell the Potter what to do? jer18 says He remakes the marred vessel into something else. (a new creation as paul says in 2cor5:17). He asks israel, "cannot I do with you as this Potter?" the answer is an implied yes, regardless of what they say. He has power over our will to do His will. what is unregenerate man's will? to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. "for they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. for to be carnally minded is death: but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. because the carnal mind is at enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (rom8:5-8). how can an unregenerate man, w/ an unregenerate will TRULY choose what he so naturally despises and considers foolishness. such a statement is ludicrous. Jesus said in john 3 that before we SEE the kingdom of God (no, the kingdom is not just heaven; we need to know what the "kingdom" represents), we must be born again, or regenerated...be born from above. the fallen man has blinded eyes, like saul on his way to persecute the christians. isaiah is quoted many times by Jesus when the jews didn't believe, saying they had eyes that could not see, nor ears that heard, lest they understand and be converted.

honestly, i sometimes wish all men could simply choose, but that is my rationale, and in isa55, God is talking about election again, saying His Word will not come back void, but all that is intended for it, it WILL accomplish that which He pleases, and shall prosper to in the thing in which He sent it to do (55:11). he likens His powerful Word that the Spirits quickens to produce faith, to the rain and snow that waters the earth. but all He decrees does NOT come back void. it DOES accomplish that which He pleases. so if i preach the Word, and someone does not get saved, how are we to explain this verse of scripture away? has God's Word not fulfilled all that He has planned? has the will of man resisted His will? (i know the scriptures in 1tim and 2pet, and you probably have read how calvinists explain them away as regards to limited atonement, so i won't do that, unless you have never read that before) it cannot be, b/c we read in rom9, that no one can resist His will (9:19). even tho' this makes absolutely no sense to me why He would do this, i still by the Holy Spirit know He is a God of love, and only my natural mind can try to find fault w/ this (9:19a). i believe that this the strongest argument against election: it doesn't make sense. man cannot figure out in his natural mind all the ways and workings of God. i truly believe the Bible has at least 4 times more verses pertaining to favour election than to discredit it. i can try to reason all those verses to my theology in my mind, or i can change the theology (well, only the Spirit can) in my mind by the powerful workings of His Word (heb4:12). back to isa55. what preceeds this harsh statement? the verses everyone quotes, but refuses to look at the following verses that explain the context better. the jews could not swallow that God would be merciful to the wicked who would forsake his ways and thoughts, that God would abundantly pardon a sinner, who had done no works to God to 'attain' salvation. they thought b/c they were jews they were elect, but rather only those that believe are elect. 55:8-9 say that His ways are not ours, and His thoughts not ours. we need to stop putting our ideologies into God's when His don't make sense to our limited, finite minds. as children, we must simply believe them, and pray the Spirit would open our eyes to truths such as these.

i pray i have not started a heated argument or anything; but i have read many debates on this issue, and i know they often do. i do not seek that. i only wanted to say that this doctrine has humbled me like no other. it has increased my burden for the lost like no other (many believe this is the opposite). i pray for my family's salvation like i have never prayed. why? that God would be glorified. i seek only to please Him, and do His will, tho i fall so short all the time. i am saved by grace, i am kept by grace, and one day we will see Him as He really is by His grace. it is HIM that worketh w/in me to do His good pleasure. of all the good i do, i give glory to Him, for regeneration, and making me a new creature that wants to serve and follow Him. i blame all sin on my flesh, which has not been born again like my spirit, and one day long for that body incorruptible that paul talks about in 1cor15. i praise God you are saved brother. may we truly rejoice in our salvation, whether i believe He quickened me first before i believed, or you believe you chose Him w/ a little help from the Spirit. we can both agree, Jesus paid it all, and all to Him we owe. we both agree that we are kept by His grace, regardless of our choices after salvation. you believe you became elect after you got saved, i believe that i was elect and therefore got saved. really, are these worth arguing over and causing unbelievers to think there is no unity between brethren. the book of 1john deals so much w/ loving our brethren, and Jesus said others would know we are His if we loved each other. you believe i am wrong, no problem....please pray for me. i am praying for myself too, b/c i do not want to be a stumbling block, or bring shame to my Saviour's glorious name. you have tons of scriptures which i know and have read. i believe i have tons more, which you have read. i just say keep prayerfully reading the bible (the ot too) and pray God would teach you and not man (ala 1jn2:27). Jesus said we cannot explain how the Spirit works in salvation; it is akin to the wind that bloweth. but we both agree that man is regenerated by the washing of the Spirit in regeneration (tit3:5), so let's just give Him glory, and spread the Good News to a lost and dying world. although i believe in election, i do not know who they are, or when they will get saved. if i preach the Word to someone and they do not get saved, i do not say, 'well they're not elect, next', but rather i pray God would open their eyes to see Him for Who He is, that they would come to a saving faith. i pray for the fields that are white (and i believe that is an election reference too by the way) for labourers to gather God's lost sheep (which if you read in john i believe shows election too, sheep represent His children here). may the grace, mercy and truth of our glorious Saviour shine upon your life.

in Christ, our beautiful LORD and Saviour, ryan

p.s. i have gathered from the reading of your debate w/ the other fellow that you enjoy reasoning, and various analogies. i am not trying to start anything up, but this is one answer i cannot get regarding election and universal atonement, perhaps you can answer (no sarcasm implied k?):

i believe God died for all men (jews and gentiles, rich and poor, ala context of 1tim2). yet not all men are saved. if God wills for all to be saved (2pet3:9), why then does He not grant repentance to all? (acts5:31, 13:24 to show He gives repentance, for we can't work it up.... repentance is the loathing of sin, and the turning from that which we now hate, in that it has offended the Father (why does one all of a sudden now care for what offends God?), which the unregenerate man loves, as shown from rom8 and rom3:9-20). is God being contradictory here? He wills all be saved, and died for all men's sins, yet you affirm many perish and go to hell. is there a middle ground? i honestly think we need to stop pleasing men, and wondering such doctrine offends them (note, not purposely causing babes to stumble, as we must do all out of love, and not ear-tickling weak theology that exalts man), and just study the Word of God. i believe if you truly believe these passages in 1tim and 2pet, then you are what some call a universalist? (i think that's what theyr'e called). ultimately, you are saying that everyone will go to heaven based on these verses. yes, they may be punished for a time, but then to fulfill these verses, that all mustl repent and get saved ultimately. God has willed it right? (go back to what i mentioned from isa55) but then to fit these verses into one's theology we must neglect all the verses that say there is an eternity (not a time) of suffering for those who resist the Holy Ghost (which is natural to the fallen man, for he hates all humbles him in his pride). so are all saved? is God's will foiled? what do we say to a apparently contradictory verse like matt20:28, "even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minster unto, and to give His life a ransom for MANY" (note, not all). did Christ die for all the world? the scripture affirms yes! but it also says He only gave His life a ransom for many! if He foreknew all that would be saved before He went to the cross, and knew all that would reject Him, do not you then affirm to the doctrine of limited atonement, that when He went to the cross He knew who He was dying for? to deny this is deny His foreknowledge and sovereignty. not only to blashpeme and belittle Christ's sufficient work on the cross to cancel out our sin-debt.

also in irresistable grace. when paul was called, was it irresistable? yes and no. truly, w/ his will he could have resisted it. but ultimately, he did not, thus making it irresistable. does that make sense? he affirms that it was the will of God that he was to be an apostle (rom1:1, 1cor1:1, etc). now if he didn't get saved, could he have become an apostle, in which he affirms by the Spirit that he was called to do? he was called to be an apostle, but not called to be a saint? did God quickly organize that plan AFTER paul got saved, or did He divinely orchestrate all circumstances leading up to his salvation to bring him to the Son, and then become a minister to the gentiles, which isaiah and then Christ prophesied? the same stories of salvation and then calling go for moses, or any other saint in the bible. hmmm, makes the noggin think hey? in my life, i can look back and see God's providence all throughout. yes, i could've chosen to resist Him, but i didn't. i consider that irresistable grace. at that time, God knew i was to be saved, and tho i had a will to not, i still did.oh, and one more thing. many believe election paints a picture of a God who delights in sending fallen, unchosen men to hell. may i paint a picture of God if He allows men to exercise their free will that is as bad, actually worse? (as He recieves not all the glory in those that do 'choose' to get saved). if God ultimately knows who will get saved, then why does He create them? is this not the same as predestination and election in a sense? you will probably run circles around me w/ words and philosophy, but think about what i just said. in His foreknowledge he knows mr. x will not choose him of his own free will. yet, He creates mr. x anyways, and mr. x dies and goes to hell. God says, well you chose to, and i am just. is this not just another way of saying what calvinists say regarding election? but we say that man is soley saved by grace, and condemned by sin, and God is given all the glory in the salvation of the elect. and also, why does God bring some people up in good christian homes, where they are showered in the gospel, and given almost unlimited chances to get saved, and then other places where they grow up in an family of say, muslims, who threaten them that believe in Jesus? are we better than they b/c we chose to be saved, and they rejected Christ? will i be able to point my finger at them and say, well, i chose to believe and you didn't? then i have whereof to boast and glory. my testimony is a definate NO! God moulded all my life's circumstances that led to the day i would get saved. and He continues to. if He does not, then i have not a sovereign God i can trust to answer all of my prayers, as He is dependant upon a force outside of Himself. paul says our faith is not to stand in the wisdom men, but in the power of God. nevertheless i live, yet not i, but Christ thru me, by the faith of the Son of God! they say grace is the gift of God, and all man needs to do is receive it. true! i agree 100% but not all men do. why? b/c not all regard it as a gift, but rather as a joke or stumbling block. God opened my eyes to see it was a gift, a glorious gift, and i accepted it. answer me this? why do some believe and the others reject? by will of course. but let's dig deeper. WHY does one choose and the other reject. ultimately we say b/c he chose to w/ his will. now who gave him all things, including his will? God did. God gives one man a horrible temper, and w/ this temper he 'chooses' to lose control and kill another man. God gives to another man a mild temperment, and he never harms another man all his life, as he 'chose' not to. do you see what i'm getting at here? 1cor4 says we are given everything by God. can not we say to God, you are not fair; You gave him a whole bunch of stuff that led him to You, but to me You gave me nothing! well, paul answers this same question to those opposing God's election in rom9. is this no different then? "who art thou that repliest against God?"

i am assuming you know all the key verses like in eph1, etc, and have decided not to re-write them out of respect for you. take care brother!

anyways, my brain hurts a ton, and i'm sure the ending will be picked apart by you, cuz i lost my focus and train of thought, but i pray God will use this to challenge you to seek the truth, and to pray for me, as you will probably assume i am a heretic. nevertheless, i am saved by faith, and i care not what man says, but rather what God saith.

God bless you in your pursuit for Truth! please pray for me as i continue to do the same, for His glory and majesty! please rupudiate me for any errors, as i claim that i am still in the learning process, and am seeking only to know the LORD more and more!

I think the main consequence of which soteriological position one holds is how one witnesses to others. Does one say "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"; or does one have to qualify that charge and say "If you are one of the elect, then you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved now, or some time in the future; but if you are one of the elect, you will be saved, if you aren't already?!"  I fear that this kind of a GOOD NEWS gospel would turn off many of the lost, but I'm sure at this point in time you would say that it would be just as effective and winning the elect? But then maybe witnessing is not even necessary? Many of your persuasion do not believe it is, although I gather that that is not your position from the paper you wrote to me. That is more the reason I would like to put it up on my website, because I sense that you are trying to convince yourself of your position as much or more than you are trying to convince me. And yes, I would say that you were predestined to go to my website and write to me. I believe that God decreed it! On the other hand, I believe you came to my site of your own God given free will. I know that does not make sense to you now in your current frame of understanding, but then as you said "His ways are not our ways". With God, all things are possible. Please read my letter on how God could have worked this out: http://www.kennywolf.com/letter51.htm.

Note for this web page posting:
I've never had a Calvinist comment on this possibility, so I'm posting a selection from this letter below:
 

I would like to know why you think scripture shows this way to be impossible. Also, I would like to know if you believe we have free will with our thoughts or do you believe that even our own thoughts are fixed.  I'll go now, as I want to gather my best response to your letter, if I think I should respond. Thank you again for writing and read the Fisk book one more time after a lot of prayer for an irenic spirit. That is very necessary when contemplating such issues. The doctrine of divine election is a beautiful assurance of positional salvation and eternal security when it is understood and kept in perspective. When taken out of context, it suddenly takes on an "ugly" overtone, to those who truly compare scripture to scripture.

Your brother in Christ,
Kenny Wolf
 

kenny, i truly am glad you emailed me back. you have a very humble spirit, and i praise the LORD we agree on the following:

witnessing--of the 'calvinists' i know, we are no different: "believe on the LORD Jesus and thou shalt be saved". however, we understand the undertone tho, that God Himself (only) effects it, and does it. paul himself pleaded w/ men to be saved. i am never going to preach to someone and say, "well you want to go to heaven, but you can't b/c you're not elect". God forbid. Jesus Himself preached to the vast multitudes, even tho' He knew all that would come to Him, for He knew all things, and the hearts of men (act1:24, john2:24-25, etc). the only difference i would say is that we ('calvinists', or most anyways) do not try to cheapen the gospel, watering it down that it not offend the listeners. the Gospel IS offensive! man has sinned. he is by nature a sinner, under condemnation. God punishes sin. man cannot do any works to merit forgiveness. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father. man must repent. it is by grace thru faith. the cheap gospel preached in so many churches now a days is the reason we have so many heretics who think they're saved, and we thus have the rise of people saying that we can lose our salvation. what a mockery to the atonement we read about in hebrews (all throughout basically). we are putting our Saviour's finished work on the cross to an open shame w/ this heresy!

i wrote this to my girlfriend: i preach Christ and Him crucified (1cor2:2), not in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God (1cor2:5). i don't preach election, i live it. we are to preach that people must repent, and turn to God. we preach the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. i believe if they get saved, it's cuz they're elect, but not before. teaching election to a babe is what spawns 'hyper-calvinism', people who hear about election, and think salvation a free ride to heaven. they assume they're christians cuz they've heard only the elect inherit (which i believe is true), claim they are elect, but never want to spread the Gospel to others (which is a sure sign of salvation). this is what gives calvinists a bad name, just like unbelievers who think they're saved give eternal security a bad name.

fellowship: we are one body, baptized into Christ by one Spirit (1cor12). there are differences between believers no doubt about it. paul and barnabus broke up, but they were still brothers and paul still commended him later in an epistle (i'll find it later bro). i am a brother w/ a saved armenian the same as i am a brother of a calvinist, the same i am a brother to one who knows neither side, but rests wholly upon the shed blood of God His Saviour.

and also i believe we have a free-will. to think we are robots has no biblical foundation. i agree w/ you that i was destined to write you, yet i still chose to. so we agree there too bro. again, i agree God's ways are higher. i still believe we must choose to call upon Him, yet i believe the Spirit gives us that choice to, as unbelievers are blinded by the God of this world (2cor4:3-5). but the only difference we have is the defintion in "free". i believe the unregenerate man cannot choose God. he is carnal. God is spiritual. our spirit is fallen due to adam (rom5) and cannot properly be reconciled to Him, but only thru a perfect mediator, Christ. unregenerated man loves sin. but we must repent, as Christ preached right off the bat (mark2). God is the only one who can truly hate sin for what it is. (we can hate the repercussions of it, but not the sin itself). until God makes us into a new creature w/ a new nature, how are we to hate sin w/ a holy hatred such as His? we have nothing desirable in us, we are unholy sinners. after we are regenerated, we have a 'new' will, one that has capablility to choose good. but here is my defintion of irresistable grace: that God knows who will get saved, and when. so when we get saved, and only the moment thereof, that's irresistable, for like as you say i was predestined to write this email, yet i chose to. the same is of salvation. we choose to, yet God planned us to. not robots, but still according to His plan. everyone always relates this thing to the story of joseph, so i won't cuz you know that God uses all (good and bad) of man's actions to accomplish His predetermined will for HIS glory. yep-p, i don't understand that, but like you said, and agree, that His ways are truly higher than ours.

honestly, i don't understand hebrews all to well, but LORD willing He will open it to me better, but this verse i read today stuck out as i thought of election, "and for this cause He (Christ of course) is the Mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called (!) might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (heb9:15). i know how many explain away rom8:29-30, but to be honest, none of them really are legit to me, as they are a far dive from the whole context i believe. it's simple: those He foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. these were called, who were then justified, then finally glorified. scripture makes it simple, man makes it difficult. election is not a difficult doctrine if one reads the Bible. election is difficult b/c it debases man's effort and "will" and exalts God's glorious power and sovereign grace. man's natural tendancy is to glorify self. God's is to glorify Himself. i "choose" to glorify God. i believe others who don't believe in election also want to glorify God too, but that's just my personal position, as i am by carnal nature a proud man.

kenny, feel free to post my email address (hungry4christ@hotmail.com) , and you can use my first name (Ryan), as i am still learning the Word, and don't want someone to read this in 10 years and think my doctrine hasn't changed or anything. i too am pressing on towards the mark of the high calling of God, i have no intentions of staying where i am. by God's grace He will have revealed me more of His Word and His will. please know i am still a work in progress, as we all are. you can post this part of the reply as well kenny, as long as you think it will bring glory to our King. i count it a priveledge that we can discuss this is a spirit of humility and of good fellowship, and you are sharpening this dull piece of iron truthfully. may God use you as a blessing for His eternal kingdom, and as a light that others may see your good works, and glorigy Him who is in heaven!

take care, brother in Christ, ryan ########## (please don't post my last name, as my doctrines may change, etc.  i just wanted you to know my full name brother. grace be with you!)

This was indeed one of the more pleasant conversations I've had with a Christian who disagreed with some positions written on my website.  I appreciate Ryan very much and wish him the best in his work in the Lord.  I end with the same Bible quote that I ended the original debate . . . 2Peter:3:9 . . .