HAPPY HORSESHOE
PITCHING!
Readers' Responses and Comments
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!
In August 2008, I received an address link for another web site blog
dedicated to finding the perfect horseshoe swing delivery. Bob
Rasmussen writes in detail about many of the things discussed on these
pages, plus he takes it a step further by explaining the equipment he
has developed to assist in training the muscles to duplicate the same
motion over and over. His blog web site is located at: http://tinyurl.com/MyWay1 . "Horseshoes My Way ... the Search for My Perfect Swing" (in 7 parts). This
blog reads very well and fluent. Bob has done a lot of thinking and
planning for this presentation and I think it will be very beneficial
for all who visit.
LETTER FROM A HOOSIER PITCHER
Hello!
I was reading the mathematics and physics of pitching that you have on
the web site, and found it informative, I do have a degree from ISU,
with a minor in physics. I think the way you changed your
delivery is on the right track. I will share what I was taught
about pitching and alignment.
I was taught that if you get the shoe up high enough after
a fairly level release, it does not have to be perfectly level, the
shoe will turn on its own to be open at the stake with either a turn
and one fourth or a turn and three fourths. To get alignment I
was taught to line up the knuckle of my thumb with the point on the
stake I am pitching at when releasing the shoe. My knuckle is in
the middle of the shoe, and if the shoe is high enough, it will be open
and make a ringer like that every time.
I pitch Allens, but every shoe is balanced different with
ringer savers and so forth. My main problem is alignment because
my eyesight is not what it used to be. I am not an expert
pitcher, I thought I might share some things I was taught by my uncle
and Clarence Bellman. So I guess to sum up one could say that in
the forward swing if the shoe is lined up and at 7-8 feet in the air,
it will rotate enough to be open, maybe not perfectly open, but open
enough to be a ringer. You get the distance by the back swing and
practice, practice. I don't know if this will help anybody pitch
any better, but this is the way I pitch, and like I said, I am not an
expert.
GP - IN 12/13/05
(follow-up letter)
I can explain exactly the way I deliver a shoe. I
bring it up to eye level flat, turn it inward, in line with the stake,
and start the back swing straight back from the stake. As it goes
past my leg in the back swing, I step forward like I am taking a long
step, but not a really long step. My back swing is about shoulder high,
and after the shoe goes past my leg in the forward swing, I roll my arm
so the shoe is fairly level when the knuckle of my thumb is about
halfway up on the stake. Then I release the shoe, which does not
have to be perfectly level, if it is fairly level, it will be fairly
level at the stake, when it goes on, if it does. If you chop off
the back swing you will be short, and if you swing back too far you
will be out of line, or off balance and step out of line. It is
tricky to get it just right the way you feel comfortable with it.
I think you will find with the thumb in the middle of the
shoe when you bring it up and the thumb in line with the stake, your
alignment will get better, and by practicing the back swing and forward
swing, you can improve up to 45-50% within a year. Keep balanced
in the forward step and be smooth with the delivery when you find out
how far back you have to swing to get the distance and be comfortable
with it. I found that Allens work best for this type of delivery,
but Walter Ray throws Clydesdales and uses pretty much the same
delivery that I do. If he is at Danville again this year, you
might watch him pitch. They don't call him Dead-eye for
nothing. I saw him beat Alan at Danville a few years ago, it was
a heck of a game. Dead-eye is the one who is the expert.
Well, I'll close for now, have good Christmas and HAPPY NEW YEAR.
GP - IN 12/14/05
Walter Ray "Deadeye" Williams, Jr.
comments on this page
http://www.walterray.com/answers2/horseshoes6.shtml
Walter
Ray Williams, Jr. is a legend in the sport of horseshoe pitching and he has
carried his natural good form and skills into the sport of professional
bowling as well. I have read that he also has a college degree in the science
of physics. On his own web site, he has a great Questions and Answers
section where he takes time out of his busy schedule to answer
questions from horseshoe pitchers. On March 28, 2005, Jim from
Jackson's Gap, AL told Walter that he had been searching for some
information about the physics of pitching horseshoes and that he found
this page and thought it had some very good information. (Jim, Thank you for your kind remark). Jim gave
Walter the web page address and asked him if he would take a look at
the information printed on this page and with his knowledge of physics
and horseshoe pitching, add a few comments.
Walter Ray Williams responded that
"although Kenny Wolf uses some physics terms in his description of how
to pitch a horseshoe he doesn't really use them properly" and that "it
is very difficult to put some things into words." He went on to say
that he (Walter Ray) hasn't "really tried to apply the equations of
physics to horseshoes. Like most sports, it comes down to repetition
and feel." Walter went on to talk about such things as the optimum
heights to throw the shoe, "the exact angle of the stake, how rigid the
stakes are, how solid the stakes are, how soft the clay is, how many
shoes and where they are near the stake, the temper of the shoes, the
temper of the stakes and even how a pitcher delivers the shoe (how much
do they lean over and the height at which they release the shoe) would
effect the optimum height." Walter stated that "there are some simple
equations, but also some very complicated ones and I (Walter Ray Williams, Jr.)
haven't put the serious thought into what I think it would require."
Kenny Wolf's Open Letter Response to Walter Ray Williams, Jr.
Hi Walter Ray,
First, I would like to congratulate you for your achievements in the sports of horseshoe
pitching and bowling. As a person who loves the sport of horseshoe
pitching and having been born and raised in the town that Curt Day
lived in, and having created a web site dedicated to horseshoe
pitching, Curt Day's accomplishments and the courts that he left to
carry on after his passing; I greatly admire you
and wish you the best and continued accomplishments in both sports. I
have three pairs of the Deadeye Clydesdale DF horseshoes and two pairs
of the Deadeye EZ-Grip horseshoes and wouldn't give any of them up for
anything else out in the marketplace. Also, I, as do others, owe you a big THANK YOU for taking the time to offer an
open forum of Q&A to your many admirers and horseshoe enthusiasts,
just as you took the time to respond to Jim from Jackson's Gap, AL
concerning the information on this site.
Of course I had you in mind when I wrote this
page.
With your cross knowledge of both horseshoe pitching and physics, I,
like many others, wished that you had written extensively on the physics
and mathematics of horseshoe pitching as you apparently did on the sport
of bowling. (I also see that on your site, you offer a video you
made on bowling for fellow bowlers). I also thought it would be very difficult to
put horseshoe
pitching into words, but I gave it a try here. I've stated many
times
on this page that I am not a great horseshoe pitcher and I have been
very up front with that fact. You say that I use some physics
terms in my description of how to pitch a horseshoe, but that I really
don't use them properly. I do wish you had taken a sentence or two
to
give an example or two of my misuse of some physics terms. I want
to
know where I have erred, so I can get this page as close to the truth
as possible. I have revised a couple of sections since I first
put
this page up. One section was on the "wobble" of a shoe. I
realized I
was wrong originally and I attempted to highlight my error in thinking
and correct my statements on it. After receiving a letter from an
individual asking me about my sections on the "tilt path" of a pitched
horseshoe, I thought about his question and revised my thinking on this
and highlighted my writing on this subject with a preface stating that
it was not practical with the way most pitchers fly a horseshoe.
My main focus in using physics on this page was to instill an awareness in other horseshoe pitchers that
a horseshoe has a center of gravity. This is a concept that I
read from a fellow horseshoe pitcher on the internet. I didn't
think of it myself! He wrote me after reading this page and his
letter is printed below and signed as D. G. (Duane Goodrich). I
don't think Mr. Goodrich would mind me crediting him with bringing this
matter to my attention. I'm sure he would say that he was taught
this concept by someone else, who learned it from someone else, and on
and on into the past. I don't think discussing a horseshoe's
"center of gravity" is using physics terms improperly. Keeping
the center of gravity of a horseshoe on a straight line to the stake
does not seem to me to be using physics terms improperly. I also
emphasize different ways of putting a turn on the horseshoe. If
the shoe is flying a distance of approximately 40 feet, give or take a
few feet, I don't see how describing the amount of turn influence on
the shoe for the approximate length of 8 feet to 4 feet (or the last 2
feet to 1 foot that it is in the hand) is using physics terms
improperly? These simple physics principles are the main concepts delved into on this page!
In your response to Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that "like
most sports, it comes down to repetition
and feel." I agreed with you 100% when I read that
comment. But some of us struggle to come up with that "feel" that
great pitchers like you have discovered and some of us struggle with
"repetition" which come so natural to pitchers like you, Curt Day,
Elmer Hohl, Dan Kuchcinski, Mark Seibold, Alan
Francis, Brian Simmons, Ted Allen, Fernando Isais and the great Guy
Zimmerman (only to mention a few of our pitching idols and
heroes). Some of us, like Jim from Jackson's Gap, AL are looking
for systematic structured advice from some of our living great
horseshoe pitchers on the physics and mathematics of horseshoe
pitching, so we know in our minds what the physics are that we are
trying to apply and so our practicing will not be in vain so often as
it is for some of us. We may never be able to fully apply this
valued
knowledge, but we would like to see it presented by one or more of the
great living horseshoe pitchers. That was the purpose of my page
here! I'm not a great horseshoe pitcher and I don't have a degree
in physics, but I don't find it "very difficult to put some things into
words" once I take the time to work out the thoughts in my mind.
Walter Ray, because I greatly admire your skills and the time you take
with horseshoe pitching enthusiasts, I would like nothing more than to
see you write a treatise on the physics and mathematics of horseshoe
pitching. Maybe you would be surprised to find that you would
express more things the way I have here; and then again, maybe you
would use a whole different approach and vocabulary of physics
terms. But either way, it would be one of your greatest
contributions to the sport. And you have already contributed so much.
Thank you for commenting on this web site. Now get your 1-1/4
turn figured out again by physics or "repetition and feel" and go out
there and win some more horseshoe pitching world championships. (Note: If
it comes down to you against one of our own Hoosier pitchers, I
must confess that, in Indiana, we Hoosiers will be rooting for the home
state guy!)
Sincerely and gratefully,
Kenny Wolf
(see the bottom of the page of
issue #8 of "Flying Horseshoes" newsletter
for a listing of the six World Championships of Walter Ray "Deadeye" Williams, Jr.)
Hi Kenny: Your article is very good; but the one thing
you might want to include is: A pitcher needs to be loose. I have
been pitching shoes since 1954. The most important thing I have
learned is to practice, practice and practice. I have noticed that I
feel much better and relaxed after warming up by pitching at least 100
shoes. My body now has a comfortable rhythm. I have noticed a lot of
pitchers don't warm up at all, and they are in the lower ringer
percentage groups.
from: B.H. (CA) 12/21/04
Kenny Wolf
Your article on horseshoe pitching dated Dec 16, 2004 shows a lot of
interest and thought on what many probably overlook.
The more pitchers write about their experience and interest in the
game/sport the better informed more people will become.
You stated that what you found in searching the internet for inside
information on pitching ringers was, "Throw the shoe far enough, ...throw
the shoe open, ...and throw the shoe at the stake." And you thought you
could hear some laughs...
You stated nearly 40 paragraphs later in your final analysis that to throw
ringers, the pitcher need only, "throw the shoe far enough, ...throw the
shoe open, ...and throw the shoe at the stake." You probably didn't hear
the laugh this time but it was there, just knowing another pitcher
discovered the truth the same way I did.
I've heard people ask, "What are the secrets to pitching?" Most skilled
pitchers simply answer, "practice, practice, practice". That is really a
good answer because people need to experiment with everything they can
think of which helps them deliver pitches that encircle the stake. Most
find a flip or turn that makes a lazy rotation in flight and which ends up
as a flat shoe with the open side facing the stake, to be what they want to
accomplish. It doesn't work out for some and thus we see multiple turns &
flips, reverse turns and other variations that work for them. There are
outstanding pitchers in every technique used, validating their particular
choices.
It may and does help beginners to practice with help from skilled pitchers
but it isn't a handicap to practice alone as long as thought is given to
the elements which will lead you to "throw the shoe far enough, ...throw
the shoe open, ...and throw the shoe at the stake."
I find it interesting that within the same family of outstanding horseshoe
pitchers, few family members pitch the same way. Every pitcher seems to be
unique.
A list of elements to try, like grips, stride, backswing, timing, turns, to
name a few, should be of interest to beginners but most who experiment
freely on their own will discover what seems to work best for them to
dedicate in practice, practice, practice.
The shoe's center of gravity is fixed (albeit invisible). A flip shoe
rotates vertically around it. A turn shoe rotates horizontally around it. A
tumbling or wobbling shoe or even a non-rotating shoe follows an invisible
arc toward the stake made by the shoe's center of gravity. No pitched shoe
is "out of balance", it naturally follows it's center of gravity arc but
those with too much wobble or with a tumbling rotation combination may not
be pretty.
Flip pitchers impart a little vertical rotation (or a lot in the case of
multiple flips) in their delivery. Turn pitchers find it possible to impart
a little horizontal rotation automatically, without forcing rotation with
wrist snaps. Wrist snaps often lead to pitches which land out of alignment.
By focusing on pitching with center of gravity alignment, most right handed
pitchers will find an automatic clockwise rotation can occur at the moment
of full arm extension when the shoe begins to free itself from your grip.
The shoe first slips away from the little finger, then off the ring finger
and middle finger, all the while pinched between thumb and index finger
until that too is free and the rotating shoe is in flight.
Best of luck.
Practice, practice, practice.
from: D.G. 12/31/04
Sections of Part 1 page
Essential Basics
INTRODUCTION
1 HORSESHOES FUN TO HOLD
2 A DROPPED SHOE AND THE DISCOVERY OF GRAVITY
3 FORWARD MOTION OF THE HORSESHOE
4 STRAIGHT TOWARDS THE STAKE FOR RINGERS
5 IMPORTANCE OF THE BACK SWING
6 GREETING THE STAKE AND STARTING THE BACK SWING
7 RELEASING THE SHOE INTO FLIGHT (revised)
8 PEAK HIGH POINT OF THE SHOE
9 WHERE IS THE CENTER OF GRAVITY OF A HORSESHOE
10 IMPORTANCE OF KNOWING WHERE THE CENTER OF GRAVITY IS
11 THROWING AN OPEN SHOE AT THE STAKE DOES NOT HAVE TO DEPEND ON LUCK
12 BACK SWINGS MAY VARY
13 STRAIGHT BACK SWING AND FORWARD SWING
14 HOW MUCH TURN ROTATION TO PUT ON A SHOE
14B EFFECT OF THE STEP ON THE FORWARD MOTION OF THE SHOE
15A HOW MUCH TURN FOR HOW LONG
15B WHAT AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE STAYS WITH THE SHOE INTO FLIGHT?
15C . . . AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FOLLOW THROUGH
16 FACTOR OF WHERE SHOE IS GRIPPED
17 SHOE CAN WORK ITSELF OR TURN ITSELF
30D FINAL ADVICE WITH ONE'S CHOSEN FORM (added on January 27, 2005)
33 OTHER PRINCIPLES TO BE DISCUSSED
CONCLUSION
READERS’ RESPONSES AND COMMENTS
Sections of Part 2 page
Deeper Speculation
9B
ALL OTHER LINES THROUGH THE CENTER POINT WILL EVENLY DIVIDE THE BALANCE
OF THE WEIGHT OF THE SHOE ON EITHER SIDE OF THE LINES (added with 20 B below)
18A WHAT IS A WOBBLE IN A SHOE (PART 1) (revised)
18B WHAT IS A WOBBLE IN A SHOE (PART 2) (revised)
18C SHOE TILT AND SHOE LIFT (THE UPWARD PATH) (added, & revised as speculation)
18D SHOE TILT AND SHOE LIFT (THE DOWNWARD PATH) (added, & revised as speculation)
18E SHOE TILT AND SHOE LIFT (MY PERSONAL DELIVERY) (added, & revised as speculation)
18F WRIST BENDING ON A FLIP SHOE
19 A VERTICAL SHOE
20A SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
20B GIVE ME A PLACE TO STAND AND WITH A LEVER I WILL MOVE THE WHOLE WORLD--ARCHIMEDES (added with 9B above)
21 WHEN A TURN SHOE FLIPS
22 PRACTICING HORSESHOES IN THE HOME
23 ANGLE OF THE LINE TO THE STAKE
24 MARKING YOUR SHOE’S CENTER OF GRAVITY
25 PITCHING HORSESHOES IN SLOW MOTION
26 PITCHING HORSESHOES IN THE SNOW
27 PITCHING HORSESHOES WITH A TRAINING ROPE
28 THE MATHEMATICS OF THE ALIGNMENT AND WHERE TO STAND TO TAKE ADVANTAGE
29 A NICE SPOT TO PLACE THE HEEL OF THE TRAILING FOOT WHEN STANDING
30A USING A NICE 3 FEET STEP TO THE FOUL LINE FROM THE SPOT
30B THREE DIFFERENT WAYS TO ORIENT THE BODY WITH THE STEP AND SWING
30C SEEING IS BELIEVING (added on January 27, 2005)
31 THEORY IN PRACTICE WITH THE TRAINING ROPE
32 THE MATHEMATICS OF THE CROSSFIRE HORSESHOE PITCHER
Go to Part 2 page "Deeper Speculation"